3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Discussion of the 5.7L-6.1L-6.4L HEMIs.

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Boony405hp
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3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by Boony405hp » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:12 pm

First off I'm wanting to put a new 3rd gen. hemi into my a body. Most information is available if you search around. I was curious though about the old style gauges (aren't they mechanical) compared to the new ones. Would you have a problem hooking these up with the new hemi?

Dave

392heminut
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Post by 392heminut » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:51 am

I'm in the process of putting a 5.7 in my 70 Barracuda, and it doesn't appear to be a problem. I will be running mechanical gauges also. They will plumb into the same places as the factory electronic gauge sending units. The oil pressure gauge line will go into a port just above the oil filter on the front of the block, and the water temp line will go into a port located in the peaked portrusion located at the front of the block just above the lifter valley. Just remove the factory sending units and hook up your mechanical gauges! Now, this is assuming that you will be running some sort of aftermarket engine management system. If you are attempting to run the factory computer it is tied into the factory gauges and must be reprogrammed to get around that. Also, your factory wiring harness must be modified. Street & Performance in Mena, Arkansas can do that for you, I believe it runs around $1,300, and Scott has a link to their site here. I will be running a Holley carb on an XV Motorsports intake and using an MSD HEMI-6 ignition controller and wiring harness on my install, so I won't have to deal with the factory ECM issues.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

57HEMICUDA
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 57HEMICUDA » Sun May 18, 2008 6:54 am

I USED ALL THE ORIGINAL GUAGES IN MY CUDA CONVERSION,ALL BUT THE TACH WAS AFTERMARKET{DIDN'T HAVE A RALLEY DASH}.THEY HOOKED RIGHT UP,I JUST HAD TO DRILL AND TAP THE HEMI PLUGS IN THE BLOCK AND CRANK FOR THE MOPAR SENDING UNITS.RON http://mysite.verizon.net/ls6ron/

helliotracing
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by helliotracing » Thu May 22, 2008 10:36 pm

Yep these guys are correct, but If I remember right the Hemi block has an additional port that has a plug in it for a mechanical gauge just in case you are still using the computer, and also the front cover has a hole that is threaded for another temp sending unit. This was the case on my 5.7 conversion.[5.7 2006 car motor]. And if you are going to go with a carb instead of injection then I would recommend the XV intake and the MSD control box just as heminut said to do. Still wondering if they are gonna come out with a front cover to use a distributor in these, cause I was reading in another manufacturer's magazine and they have one out for the ls2 Chevy motors already, any info would be nice.
It will run rich forever but it will only run lean once.

TrWaters
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by TrWaters » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:52 pm

Arrington's advertise a conversion kit consisting of a front cover, distributor, and cam.
Early hemi to late sb Mopar trans adapters. Precision billet parts for early hemis.

turbofreek
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by turbofreek » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:10 pm

so the stock stearing box will fit with the a body? how programable is that msd ignition? will it adjust for boost pressure? whats the retail on it?

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:07 pm

The stock MANUAL steering box will fit on the A body, if you use headers it's my understanding that there isn't enough romm for the power steering box. You might be able to find a stock exhaust manifold that would give you enough room to use power steering, but I haven't really heard anything on that. The MSD box is programmable for timing curves and has a built in program for a vacuum advance curve if a factory type MAP sensor is used, and the wiring harness has a plug for the sensor. Since you can use a MAP sensor with the MSD box I would think that it can be programmed for boost, but I'm not positive on that. It would probably be best to call MSD's tech line and talk to them about it. You can get the MSD box from Jegs or Summit for right at $500, and the wiring harness for your application for about $200. There are 4 different harnesses to cover fuel injected and carbed applications and use of the late style coil packs or early style coil packs.

BTW, after 7 months of XV Motorsports jacking me around on when they would get their 5.7 intakes in stock I got my money back and went with a Mopar Performance intake. Indy Cylinder Heads has their new modular intake out now and in stock, and it is competitavely priced, as opposed to the Mopar Performance intake, which now retails for over $1,000.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

speedicusmaximus
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by speedicusmaximus » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:36 pm

Anybody reading this might be interested in the May 2009 issue of Car Craft Magazine.

There's a good feature on the transplanting of a Gen-III Hemi into earlier bodied Mopars.

The feature covers motor mounts, headers, a/c, p/s, both 5.7 and 6.1 blocks, carbs and EFI, throttle cables/drive-by-wire, ECM, transmissions, k-frame, oil system, cooling system, accessories, fuel system and suppliers/knowledgable sources to contact.

There's nothing on their website though .......

Mike
Beep ! Beep !

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:44 am

I wasn't at all impressed with that article! There's some bad info and a lot of info not in there. I don't know where they got their info on the crank flange having a different enough offset from the LA engines that you need a spacer to bolt on a small block transmission or bellhousing, that's absolutely incorrect! They also stated that the factory P/S pump puts out too much pressure to run with the older steering boxes which is not the case. As I've stated in other posts here, I'm running that very setup with no problems at all and I believe there has been at least one other person who has stated here that they also use the factory pump with no issues. They don't even discuss the option of using a carburetor instead of fuel injection and never mention the availability of a relatively inexpensive ignition control box from MSD that makes it possible to run a carb type induction. There were a lot of other little things in the article that could get someone attempting this swap into a bind. In my opinion the article was very poorly researched and written, and it appears the author got most of his info from Street & Performance and John LaPaglia, the guy who did the swap into a 73 Challenger that the magazine featured in an earlier edition, and then decided he had enough info to write an article and let it end there! On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd put that article at a 3!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

speedicusmaximus
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by speedicusmaximus » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:41 am

It could be that they got stuff wrong. If so, would you be good enough to contact them and correct their mistakes ?

With regard to the transmission obstacles, Gen-III to SB Mopar trans (904/727), they actually show a kit - a spacer plate for the crank/flex-plate, and available from Bouchillon Performance: http://www.bouchillonperformance.com

Anyone used it, or got it all to work without ?

The steering issue came down to B and E-bodies keeping the stock power-steering box and the using the Gen-III Hemi pump (I thought that someone here had mentioned dropping the output pressure a little on these ?), But for A-bodies, allegedly there's not enough room to keep the original power-steering box. The feature mentions using a lower pressure pump for B and E-bodies, available from Bouchillon, to correct the pressure problems, or use a GM alternative.

I'd agree with them though, on carb vs. EFI: if you're buying an engine with EFI to begin with, why not keep the EFI and use that, rather than buy alot of more stuff to make it all work ?

Anyone else read it ?

Mike

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:07 pm

speedicusmaximus wrote:It could be that they got stuff wrong. If so, would you be good enough to contact them and correct their mistakes ?

With regard to the transmission obstacles, Gen-III to SB Mopar trans (904/727), they actually show a kit - a spacer plate for the crank/flex-plate, and available from Bouchillon Performance: http://www.bouchillonperformance.com

Anyone used it, or got it all to work without ?


Mike
I've been driving my Cuda for the last three months with the TF 727 bolted up directly to the 5.7 block. I also used the truck flexplate that came with the 5.7, all I had to do was have the starter ring gear taken off of it and elongate one hole for the offset bolt on the torque converter. It's a bolt in, that kit Bouchillon is selling is NOT necessary!

As for why run a carb instead of the fuel injection, the MSD controller and harness is $700, an intake is $500, an electric fuel pump $100, and a carb $250. That totals out to $1550, and I actually only have $1100 in mine because I got the manifold for $300 and already had the carb. That doesn't even take into account the $300 I got back for the factory harness and ECM on Ebay! If you stick with the fuel injection you will have to spend a minimum of $1300 just to have Street & Performance modify your factory ECM and harness so you can run it and then you still have an ECM that you can't reprogram if you make any performance enhancements. If you go with an aftermarket controller that you can tune you're looking at a minimum of $2500. You will still have to deal with the higher pressure needed for fuel injection too. An external pump starts at $200 and if you do it the way it should really be done you're looking at $900 for a new gas tank with an internal high pressure pump and baffles. Then there is the throttle by wire setup to deal with and if you are running an auto tranny you also have to deal with the kickdown linkage. I did my swap on a budget and there was no advantage for me to keep the fuel injection. I don't plan on touring the country with my car so mileage isn't an issue, and I doubt I'll put 50,000 miles on this car so longevity is a non-issue. As for performance, it's been proven that a well tuned carb setup has a slight edge over fuel injection.

The thing that irks me about the Car Craft article is the fact that they have always claimed to cater to the budget car guys and try to stay away from the cubic dollar stuff and leave that to Hot Rod magazine. They dropped the ball big time on this one! Their suggestions for a swap are definately the high dollar stuff!
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

speedicusmaximus
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by speedicusmaximus » Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:40 pm

392HemiNut,

Just posted an e-mail to John McGann, writer of the feature and Car Craft contributor. Here's to getting a reply !

Mike
Beep ! Beep !

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:08 am

Hopefully you'll hear back from them Mike. I was really disappointed with that article, that's not the sort of stuff Car Craft is known for. To be fair though, I'm even more disappointed with Mopar Muscle Magazine. They should have had an article like that before Car Craft, but they have barely touched on the subject of the new hemi swaps. I wrote a letter to them, which was published in the magazine more than a year ago, suggesting just such an article. Their response in the magazine was that it was as if I had bugged their offices, as they had already talked about just such an article and it was on the agenda. After more than a year they have still not done anything on the subject!

If you get a response from McGann could you post it here?
Larry
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

speedicusmaximus
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by speedicusmaximus » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:32 am

Larry,

If I get a reply, and I wouldn't be too hopefull, I'll be more than happy to post it here.

I didn't renew my sunscription to MM, when the time came, as I felt they were becoming a little light-weight with their features and tech. Still get Mopar Action though ! Perhaps writing to them, MA, will get something good on the topic. One thing you can be sure of is their accurate information.

Re-read the Car Craft article, after leaving it for a few days, and yes, it was somewhat vague on some of the topics than I first thought !

Mike
Beep ! Beep !

mart
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by mart » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:26 am

As for performance, it's been proven that
a well tuned carb setup has a slight edge over fuel
injection.
--------------------------------------------------
Unless of course you've also got a "well tuned" fuel injection! :D
mart
===============================================

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:32 am

mart wrote:
As for performance, it's been proven that
a well tuned carb setup has a slight edge over fuel
injection.
--------------------------------------------------
Unless of course you've also got a "well tuned" fuel injection! :D
mart
===============================================
Not according to articles I've read in the past. The consensus has been that both systems being well tuned, the carb setup has a slight performance edge (talking 1/4 mile performance here) and the F/I has the mileage and driveability advantage on the street. That being said though, if they are properly set up there's not enough difference between them that would make me pick one over the other for performance or driveability. My choice was based on economics. :)
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

turbofreek
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by turbofreek » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:14 pm

that was very vague in my opinion as well. im new to the mopar stuff and i didnt get anything, but bs from that article. i would much rather be carbed, but again efi has its querks when you want a duel fuel setup like pumpgas or e85 seperate tunes. however its bigger money unless megasquirt has somehting. which i believe they do now have efi for the hemi stuff.

im still trying to find the blocks limitations to see what i can push one to before purchasing.

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:20 am

turbofreek wrote:
im still trying to find the blocks limitations to see what i can push one to before purchasing.
If you have some time, you might go back through the posts in this section. A year or more ago a member here (can't remember the name, I've slept several times since then :) ) had some posts on how much these blocks could take. He was experimenting with stroker cranks and such, and had some insight on that very subject.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

turbofreek
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by turbofreek » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:15 pm

392heminut wrote:
turbofreek wrote:
im still trying to find the blocks limitations to see what i can push one to before purchasing.
If you have some time, you might go back through the posts in this section. A year or more ago a member here (can't remember the name, I've slept several times since then :) ) had some posts on how much these blocks could take. He was experimenting with stroker cranks and such, and had some insight on that very subject.

yea i see hemidup doing some stuff, but nobody else. and all i see is n/a applications with strokers. no serious 4 digit power numbers that im after

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:43 am

Hemidup is the member I was referring to, thanks for the memory jog! He may not be frequenting the board anymore. I sent him a PM to see if he had any suggestions for a timing curve for the new hemis, as the one that came in the MSD Hemi-6 controller is very conservative in my opinion. I've never received a response from him. From his posts it seemed like he was trying to push the limits on these engines and probably had some insight to their shortcomings. Hopefully he will show back up here sometime! :-?
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

turbofreek
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by turbofreek » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:13 pm

392heminut wrote:Hemidup is the member I was referring to, thanks for the memory jog! He may not be frequenting the board anymore. I sent him a PM to see if he had any suggestions for a timing curve for the new hemis, as the one that came in the MSD Hemi-6 controller is very conservative in my opinion. I've never received a response from him. From his posts it seemed like he was trying to push the limits on these engines and probably had some insight to their shortcomings. Hopefully he will show back up here sometime! :-?
i sent him a pm and he did respond. he said he sent my questions on to somebody named denny i think? ill wait to see if i can get an answer from that guy. hemidup did say hes looking to push 1000hp, but im looking for quite a bit more then that. its tough when most mopar guys are not into the abnormally asperated builds. dont blame them since mopars sound and run so damn good n/a its tough to change that.

helliotracing
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by helliotracing » Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:49 pm

Well I am back for round 2 with a 72 duster and a low mileage 5.7. The msd and carb is the only way to go as far as I am concerned. Hey there 392 where did you score an intake for 300? I used the mopar performance flexplate but this time I might just use the stock one and cut off the ring gear. Just curious what carb did you use on yours? I will keep you updated on my progress.
It will run rich forever but it will only run lean once.

392heminut
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Re: 3rdGen hemi into a body questions

Post by 392heminut » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:27 am

I stumbled on to that intake kind of by accident. I was tired of XV jacking me around for 6 months on their intake manifold and got my money back from them. I started looking around, and found out that Mopar Performance had hiked the price of their intake to over $1,000 retail. I was considering going with the Edelbrock dual 4 setup because it was about the only other option, and someone told me that Indy Cylinder Heads was coming out with their modular manifold. I gave them a call and spoke with a guy there that told me they would have them in about 2 weeks. I told him about all the trouble I had gone through with XV and how frustrating it was that MP had raised the price of their intake so much. He called me back the next day and said he had an MP intake that I could have for 300 something, I don't remember the exact price, but it was just the bare intake, no hardware or gaskets or fittings. I jumped on that offer right away!

I'm running a Holley 3310 750 vac. sec. carb with a Pro Form body, the same carb I had on the 392. It works really well except for a slight bog just off idle if you floor it from a dead stop, which it didn't have with the 392. I'm thinking I may need to go a little bigger on the accelerator pump squirter, or possibly put a stiffer spring in the secondary diaphram to slow the secondaries down a little. The spring in there now is the lightest one, which worked good on the 392.

I haven't really had a chance to do any tuning on the engine yet and have not gotten it on a track yet. I know there's more in it just in the timing, the MSD Hemi-6 box has a very conservative curve in it at about 25 degrees total advance. I'll have to borrow my son's laptop to tweak the timing, as I don't own one. I'm sure the 5.7 could use a MINIMUM of 30 degrees timing, possibly more. Have you had a chance to play with the timing on these engines? If so I would like to know what type of curve you have come up with to give me a place to start on mine. If not, and you get a chance to play with the timing on yours before I do I would appreciate it if you could post what you come up with. I've looked all over the internet trying to find timing info on the new hemis, but there just isn't anything out there.
Owner of the Poor Man's Hemi Cuda

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