GS Motorsports S/C vs. STS Turbo

millers_ram · Post by **millers_ram** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:31 pm

I'm looking to do either a turbo or supercharger. I've been looking at the STS turbo kit and the GS Motorsports supercharger. I'd like to get the opinions of anyone who has either of these systems (i.e. what do you think of them, any issues with tuning, cost, etc.)

Post by **scottm** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:49 pm

Last I heard there were some tuning issues with the
turbo setup due to the torque management, but that
seems like something that may affect both systems.

GONE1445 · Post by **GONE1445** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:01 pm

I am in the same boat, but the more i look at the turbo the more i dislike mainly because of where the intake is relocated to. also i think i saw antoher post that some guy said he had the sts turbo and he had a problem with the air/fule ratio

millers_ram · Post by **millers_ram** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:55 pm

I talked to a dealer about the STS system, and from the way he was talking, it seems that the turbo system isn't completely ready and that they have to troubleshoot as they go. He mentioned about having issues with the engine stalling after going from wot to no throttle. Also, that the engine can go into limp mode (forcing the driver to pull over, turn the engine off, wait a few minutes, and then restart) if boost comes on at low rpm.

After looking of the GS Motorsports site, it seems that they have a pretty decent kit with almost no bugs, but I have yet to talk to a dealer or someone with the S/C kit installed.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:45 am

The GSM and STS kits experience a lot of the same issues. GSM just has everything kept quiet and damn nicely. The turbo kits put down way more power.

These trucks have pcm issues and both vendors are fighting things. GSM's is more functional out the door, the STS kit takes some changing. I put on an SMT6 for mine and alleviated 90% of my issues. It handles fuel VERY nicely and takes care of the WOT to no throttle limp modes. STS sent out their kits w/o MAP sensor alterations. There needs to be a map clamp. Get that to 4.39 volts and most of your problems will be solved. They generally hook you up with a guy named Ken from NJ who with a group of us, has mastered the hemi kits. He'll set you up with MAP sensor pieces to go along with the kit.

All of the part throttle boost issues haven't been resolved. GSM doesn't seem them much because the supercharger can't produce low end boost. You'll never see 5psi of boost at 2500rpms and slight throttle with their unit. The turbo will spool like crazy. STS modifies the wastegate to slow down the boost. That causes a slow spool up and terrible 60' ET's. I have a full functional wastegate on there and I removed the 5.5psi spring and replaced it with a 3.5psi. My low boost setting maxes at 3.5psi and high boost, controlled by a switch, takes me up to 8psi. I drive around 99% of the time in low boost so I don't thrash my engine all the time and it's so much easier driving around town at 2 and 3psi vs. 5 and 6.

The pcm is the issue. I'd say wait till next year and see what Superchips and/or B&G do. Superchips has already custom tuned some pcms for the cams that are out and will be tuning my friends turbo hemi truck this December. They "say" they may incorporate a base f/i tune afterwards. B&G can do it, but they are too busy right now. When the tunes are avail, the f/i kits will work 100% as designed.

GONE1445 · Post by **GONE1445** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:11 pm

i heard that Gs motorsports has fixed the pcm problems for the 2003 any way they sent me an e-mail tellin me why it was hard to supercharge my 2003 hemi but they where workin on a fix and im assuming they got one now

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:16 pm

GSM had an a/f problem with the '03s due to the 49psi fuel pump. The 04 and up have 58psi. I have installed an '04 pump in my '03. It's not a direct bolt in, but will fit with minor alterations. But I do believe they've gotten their a/f issues ironed on out the '03s.

As for pcm problems, nobody has a true fix. There are only bandaids. Until Superchips or B&G comes out with a true f/i tune, piggybacks are the only way to go. I have an smt6 and GSM using a Roe splitsecond controller. Both of these are bandaids for the pcm.

P.E.P.I. Racing · Post by **P.E.P.I. Racing** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:52 pm

No one has a fix for the pcms yet. not to say one isnt in the works.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:16 am

The turbo kits have a fix. We have 8 39# injectors and a new smt6 tune to run them. The factory map sensor is removed from the pcm management "picture" and a new 2 bar goes in it's place. Runs $1000 for the setup. STS said they'd knock about $500 off the price of the kit if you didn't get the aux injector config. Ordering from Kenihemi is around the $4500 range and could be closer to 4k if you removed the aux inj setup. Add $1000 for injectors, smt6, map sensor and tune and you'll be back at 5k-ish.

Bottom16 · Post by **Bottom16** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:15 pm

Please tell me that this is available for the Jeep with the HEMI? My last car was a twin turbo with 450 HP and I miss all the aspects of the turbo. Please let me know if this can be set up on the '05 Jeep w/HEMI. Would love to surprise my friend who has a Cayenne Turbo and smoke his arse!

Thanks!!!!

P.E.P.I. Racing · Post by **P.E.P.I. Racing** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:56 am

hemifever wrote:The turbo kits have a fix. We have 8 39# injectors and a new smt6 tune to run them. The factory map sensor is removed from the pcm management "picture" and a new 2 bar goes in it's place. Runs $1000 for the setup. STS said they'd knock about $500 off the price of the kit if you didn't get the aux injector config. Ordering from Kenihemi is around the $4500 range and could be closer to 4k if you removed the aux inj setup. Add $1000 for injectors, smt6, map sensor and tune and you'll be back at 5k-ish.

ok so they got a hack fix on the fueling but what about spark control ??? also that 2 bar map is gonna set some CEL's for sure.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:28 am

P.E.P.I. Racing wrote:
hemifever wrote:The turbo kits have a fix. We have 8 39# injectors and a new smt6 tune to run them. The factory map sensor is removed from the pcm management "picture" and a new 2 bar goes in it's place. Runs $1000 for the setup. STS said they'd knock about $500 off the price of the kit if you didn't get the aux injector config. Ordering from Kenihemi is around the $4500 range and could be closer to 4k if you removed the aux inj setup. Add $1000 for injectors, smt6, map sensor and tune and you'll be back at 5k-ish.
ok so they got a hack fix on the fueling but what about spark control ??? also that 2 bar map is gonna set some CEL's for sure.

Who are you referring to by "they"? This isn't an STS addition. Running 8 large primary injectors is a hack fix on fueling? That's always been my goal, removing the auxilary fuel inj...THAT to me is a hack fix. The two bar map doesn't cause CEL's because the SMT6 is now providing the map tables to the pcm. I'm running this setup now, a truck in CA has been running it for 6 weeks, and another truck on a West coast state has been running it for about 2 months. It's been a real solid kit. It's nice not to have a 9th injector and not spend BIG BUCKS on a standalone.

What questions do you have about spark control? I don't think anybody has control over spark control, but the SMT6 does control timing and fuel calibration for the increased injector #. If it does something with spark control its over my head on what it does.

P.E.P.I. Racing · Post by **P.E.P.I. Racing** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:57 am

hemifever wrote:
P.E.P.I. Racing wrote:
hemifever wrote:The turbo kits have a fix. We have 8 39# injectors and a new smt6 tune to run them. The factory map sensor is removed from the pcm management "picture" and a new 2 bar goes in it's place. Runs $1000 for the setup. STS said they'd knock about $500 off the price of the kit if you didn't get the aux injector config. Ordering from Kenihemi is around the $4500 range and could be closer to 4k if you removed the aux inj setup. Add $1000 for injectors, smt6, map sensor and tune and you'll be back at 5k-ish.
ok so they got a hack fix on the fueling but what about spark control ??? also that 2 bar map is gonna set some CEL's for sure.
Who are you referring to by "they"? This isn't an STS addition. Running 8 large primary injectors is a hack fix on fueling? That's always been my goal, removing the auxilary fuel inj...THAT to me is a hack fix. The two bar map doesn't cause CEL's because the SMT6 is now providing the map tables to the pcm. I'm running this setup now, a truck in CA has been running it for 6 weeks, and another truck on a West coast state has been running it for about 2 months. It's been a real solid kit. It's nice not to have a 9th injector and not spend BIG BUCKS on a standalone.

What questions do you have about spark control? I don't think anybody has control over spark control, but the SMT6 does control timing and fuel calibration for the increased injector #. If it does something with spark control its over my head on what it does.

You think a Piggy back isn't a hack fix ??How exactly are you going to get around Chrysler Spark control algorythms ?? they are alway watching cranshaft speed to determine what TQ output is. Also how is the SMT6 any better then say a AFC from Apexi ETC ???? Its more Snake oil. Why doesn't STS and GSM break down and spend the $$ on hacking out the PCM instead of trying to add more hardware. That Hardware does come at a price. I'm Sure it'll never meet chrysler durability standards and all of the output controls it does have are based on inputs from the chrysler pcm which are not understood at all. So at best the SMT6 etc are all hack devices. Then there is that 2bar
MAP sensor. is that being pipped into the factory chrysler controler ?

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:39 pm

P.E.P.I. Racing wrote: You think a Piggy back isn't a hack fix ??How exactly are you going to get around Chrysler Spark control algorythms ?? they are alway watching cranshaft speed to determine what TQ output is. Also how is the SMT6 any better then say a AFC from Apexi ETC ???? Its more Snake oil. Why doesn't STS and GSM break down and spend the $$ on hacking out the PCM instead of trying to add more hardware. That Hardware does come at a price. I'm Sure it'll never meet chrysler durability standards and all of the output controls it does have are based on inputs from the chrysler pcm which are not understood at all. So at best the SMT6 etc are all hack devices. Then there is that 2bar
MAP sensor. is that being pipped into the factory chrysler controler ?

True, a piggyback is nowhere near the proper running of an actual factory pcm. However, I've been running a piggyback for almost a year now with a 2 1/2 bar map sensor. I just have recently gone back to a 2 bar and the 39# injectors. No issues at all with the setup. As time goes on, the factory pcm may get cracked. Superchips has finally written some map tables to handle the bigger comp cams profiles and B&G "could" write a f/i tune at the starting/minimum expense of $1200 + weeks/months w/o my truck. Not that feasible. But eventually some stuff will be out there. STS and GSM aren't computer coders. Kenne Bell spent about 500k on R&D with the '03 hemi pcm and finally gave up. STS and GSM can't even begin to try and crack it. I have control over timing, map, and fuel with my piggyback which is really all that I need at the moment.

P.E.P.I. Racing · Post by **P.E.P.I. Racing** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:58 am

The Problem with your piggy back is that all of its calculations are based on relativity. This create bizzare at best fuel and spark trim when in part throttle modes.

As for hacking the chrysler pcm dont hold your breathe for superchips.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:25 am

P.E.P.I. Racing wrote:The Problem with your piggy back is that all of its calculations are based on relativity. This create bizzare at best fuel and spark trim when in part throttle modes.

As for hacking the chrysler pcm dont hold your breathe for superchips.

Well my piggyback has been running great for almost a year now. It's not tripped CEL's so it's keeping the pcm somewhat happy.

As for Superchips, they have done some minor cracking. They have written map tables for the comp cams. I have a contact in SC that has had the custom Superchips tune for about 3 months now. Superchips had their truck for about 2 weeks via. KRC Performance and wrote the map tables for the cam. Supposedly this year they might release that as a production tune. However, they've only done one, maybe two trucks so I'm sure there is plenty of testing to do before going public with it.

P.E.P.I. Racing · Post by **P.E.P.I. Racing** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 1:40 pm

hemifever wrote:
P.E.P.I. Racing wrote:The Problem with your piggy back is that all of its calculations are based on relativity. This create bizzare at best fuel and spark trim when in part throttle modes.

As for hacking the chrysler pcm dont hold your breathe for superchips.
Well my piggyback has been running great for almost a year now. It's not tripped CEL's so it's keeping the pcm somewhat happy.

As for Superchips, they have done some minor cracking. They have written map tables for the comp cams. I have a contact in SC that has had the custom Superchips tune for about 3 months now. Superchips had their truck for about 2 weeks via. KRC Performance and wrote the map tables for the cam. Supposedly this year they might release that as a production tune. However, they've only done one, maybe two trucks so I'm sure there is plenty of testing to do before going public with it.

They aren't reprogramming them from the data link OBD2 connector. I would love to divulge more but they are a very long long long way from getting into the ECM.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 3:11 pm

P.E.P.I. Racing wrote: They aren't reprogramming them from the data link OBD2 connector. I would love to divulge more but they are a very long long long way from getting into the ECM.

They oughta be taking the pcm out and hooking into that. Whether they program through the obd2 connector or connect straight into the pcm, doesn't it still program the same tables?

In anycase, regardless of how things are getting done, KRC has 13+ trucks with new map tables in the factory pcm (no piggyback) handling the 220 cam and a couple with turbo's. Regardless of who is or isn't cracking the pcm, the factory pcm map tables are being written for the mods out there. My piggyback has been running a 2 and/or 2 1/2 bar map sensor (depending on the time frame) along with fuel control for almost a year now w/o issue and getting the job done very well. We can talk till we're blue in the face, but the job is getting done for the mods that are out and the pcm's are being written whether it's through the exhaust pipe or through the pcm itself. You obviously don't agree with any of the methods being utilized but there are quite a few people who think different and are enjoying f/i and the cams that are avail.

P.E.P.I. Racing · Post by **P.E.P.I. Racing** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:07 am

hemifever wrote:
P.E.P.I. Racing wrote: They aren't reprogramming them from the data link OBD2 connector. I would love to divulge more but they are a very long long long way from getting into the ECM.
They oughta be taking the pcm out and hooking into that. Whether they program through the obd2 connector or connect straight into the pcm, doesn't it still program the same tables?

In anycase, regardless of how things are getting done, KRC has 13+ trucks with new map tables in the factory pcm (no piggyback) handling the 220 cam and a couple with turbo's. Regardless of who is or isn't cracking the pcm, the factory pcm map tables are being written for the mods out there. My piggyback has been running a 2 and/or 2 1/2 bar map sensor (depending on the time frame) along with fuel control for almost a year now w/o issue and getting the job done very well. We can talk till we're blue in the face, but the job is getting done for the mods that are out and the pcm's are being written whether it's through the exhaust pipe or through the pcm itself. You obviously don't agree with any of the methods being utilized but there are quite a few people who think different and are enjoying f/i and the cams that are avail.

all superchips is doing is grabbing a DRB3 diagnostic/utility and globally adding or subtracting fuel. The Truth is that Superchips has never written a custom map for anything ever. I put them in the same catagory as Ed Wright at Fast chips, Formato Chips, Hypertech,Diablosport,TPIS , etc etc etc. none of these companys know how to do a Real Calibration. So i would be very careful who you believe when they say Custom MAP. They arent writing anything. They should be Adjusting Values in the already written code. It was fairly obvious 3 months ago when superchips was hunting for the information you claim they have that they really didnt have it.The sum total of what i can't tell you right now is immense. But things are not as they seem.

turboshelby · Post by **turboshelby** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:40 pm

unfortunantly pepi is right,on quite a few things.superchips,diablo sport,hypertech or most other chip or "custom programs" are really no more than can be done on a drb3.whoever said kenne belle spent 500k on cracking it,has (with all due respect) lost their freakin mind.no way,no how would anyone be that ignorant with half a million dollars,now 50k,maybe,just maybe.i do think pepi is right though,i think it will be a very long time before any cracks the 5.7 ecm,so thats why i simpley say,screw the 5.7 electronics.who really cares that much about cracking it?theres not enough interest to make someone dump a butt load of cash when people can use piggyback systems.sure the piggy backs are very unreliable,have strange unexplainable spikes,yup pepi is right there,but up to about 5 psi,they are OK.and if there happens to be anyone who is really worried about ignition control,let me set your minds at ease,5-6 psi and GOOD gas,no midgrade garbage,good gas,youll be fine.

turboshelby · Post by **turboshelby** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:43 pm

um let me rephrase that,if you happen to be attempting to run a novi 1500 supercharger......................id run race gas,look at the compressor maps for that blower.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:41 pm

I'm almost done tuning with the new smt6 tune and 2 bar map sensor. My factory 1 bar is out of the equation. My fuel pump pressure makes the new injectors 47#. I've gotten my ST and LTFT's to about -3 to +3% while part throttle cruising and accelerating. At idle my LTFT hits about -15 but the idle cells and light throttle cells share the same area in the map tables so I've concentrated on driving functionality vs. idling. -15 is still far from a CEL so it's not a concern. The truck drives like a factory turbo vehicle and part throttle boost is no issue at all now. I can scoot up an incline at 40% TPS and 3psi of boost w/o issue. I'm tuned for 8psi but with the 2 bar map sensor it'll handle fuel control through 15psi (which I'll never see). I've run 8psi for a year now and might run up to 10 after my FMIC goes in. I'm meth injected right now.

turboshelby · Post by **turboshelby** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:27 pm

thats great,im glad to hear yours is doing well,and i really plesantly suprised to hear youve been running 8psi with a intercooler.what turbo are you running?

turboshelby · Post by **turboshelby** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:28 pm

have you ever put it on a chassis dyno or taken it to the track,id be real interested in hearing your results.

hemifever · Post by **hemifever** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:03 am

I have meth injection which takes the place of an i/c. However, I will be running both the meth and i/c soon.

My dyno #'s are in my signature. I may hit the track this April. I have an STS turbo. My truck is a 4x4 QC 1500 that weighed in at 5960# with me in it and 1/4 tank of gas. I don't venture out to the track anymore, families will hamper that. LOL. But being so heavy, it's not gonna be an eye opener performer I wouldn't imagine.